Talk:Karl Branting/Archive 1
I don't want to make a drastic change with out saying any thing, but according to the PC versions "default.ide" file, Karls' model is listed as "PFlead_Karl" like Johnny Vincints' is "GRlead_Johnny". So I would asume Seth is not the highest ranked Prefect Karl is.--Simguy20652 04:00, 14 December 2008 (UTC) :He sounds like a leader, due to his dialogue and the tone he speaks in. He is also the only prefect who does not abuse his own authority. It is never stated in game whether Seth is the leader or not, we only assumed it because he is the prefect who gives out the punishments in detention. Dan the Man 1983 14:06, 14 December 2008 (UTC) ::Max doesn't really abuse his authority either. McJeff 15:35, 14 December 2008 (UTC) :::And what does Seth's .ide file say? Anything other than his name? McJeff 15:37, 14 December 2008 (UTC) ::::Max mentions that he wishes someone would cause trouble in his dialogue. But he ain't as bad as Seth or Edward. Seth mentions beatings in nearly every line of dialogue and Edward states that he likes to kick butt and also states that it satisfies a deep deep craving. Dan the Man 1983 21:06, 14 December 2008 (UTC) :::::Seth's model name simply says "PFH1_Seth". Also I've noticed that some model names have "2nd" after the clique they belong to, like "DO2nd_Omar". Zoe said that Omar was Edgar's second in command. So Max is second in command because his model name is "PF2nd_Max".--Simguy20652 03:22, 15 December 2008 (UTC) ::::::Hmmmmmm this could help name the 2nd in command of the Nerds and maybe check to see if the Bullies have one too. So Karl is the leader of the prefects and Max is the 2nd in command? Dan the Man 1983 03:27, 15 December 2008 (UTC) :::::::Looks like, though I think when we edit the articles we should state that this came from the PC version data files rather than in-game info. Even if he's nothing in particular according to the files, Seth still acts like the highest ranking prefect in the game. McJeff 03:41, 15 December 2008 (UTC) ::::::::In my opinion Seth only acts like the leader in the detention scenes. Most of the time he just sounds like a bully. Karl acts more like a leader then Seth does because of his quotes and the tone he speaks in. Just my opinion though. Dan the Man 1983 05:10, 15 December 2008 (UTC) :::::::::Seth also takes Jimmy's slingshot during the last mission. He's the only prefect with a bigger role than the others, which is why I still think he's the real head prefect. See my comment below. McJeff 16:23, 15 December 2008 (UTC) ::::::::::Having a bigger role does not make you a leader. If it does then Ted would have a bigger role then Damon. Dan the Man 1983 18:39, 15 December 2008 (UTC) ::::::::Melvin is 2nd in command. (ND2nd_Melvin)--Simguy20652 04:32, 15 December 2008 (UTC) :::::::::I knew Melvin was the 2nd in command, just needed to make sure. Dan the Man 1983 05:07, 15 December 2008 (UTC) (undent) While we're at it, maybe Simguy could check to see what Norton and Peanut's files say about their ranking? Of course, here's another point. Note that the file names may be out of date themselves... for example, Omar's file is DO2nd_Omar. DO stands for DropOuts. Yet the clique was renamed from DropOuts to Townies relatively late in the game. My personal opinion is that info gathered from the file names should be used in addition to what we've found out from playing and analyzing the game, not instead of. McJeff 16:23, 15 December 2008 (UTC) :You still think Norton is the 2nd man in the Greasers then? Personally I think he is Johnny's bodyguard. Dan the Man 1983 18:46, 15 December 2008 (UTC) ::Yep, I think Norton's the second-in-command of the Greasers, while Peanut is Johnny's right-hand man. They're not necessarily the same thing. McJeff 19:40, 15 December 2008 (UTC) :::I think Peanut is the 2nd in command, while Norton is Johnny's bodyguard. Dan the Man 1983 19:55, 15 December 2008 (UTC) ::::You are correct Peanut is 2nd in command. (GR2nd_Peanut)--Simguy20652 20:23, 15 December 2008 (UTC) :::::Thanks for clarification. Me and McJeff have discussed this many times before, our opinions have always differed on the subject. Dan the Man 1983 20:40, 15 December 2008 (UTC) I don't know where else to put this but.. I've found a way to add characters like the clique leaders and teachers to free roam. However it would require one to hex edit the "ide.img" file and replace the "FFFFFF" with "010000" just before "Global/Class" for each student and/or adult. They will then be randomly chosen when spawning a character from their character class (Prefect/Nerd/Jock/Townie/Greaser/Preppies/Students/Cop/Teachers/Townpeople/Shopekeep/Bully. Not in that order). One can also edit "PedPop.ide" for changing the population in buildings. The hardest part would be hex editing the "Trigger.img" for changing the population outside. One would need to find the spawn area, for example "RichArea" is Old Bullworth Vale, then find the appropriate time (DAY_OUTOFCLASS, DAY_INCLASS, NIGHT_EVENING, NIGHT_CURFEW) then input how many characters you want to spawn at that time (GREASER 3). Lastly add up all the characters spawning at that time. This will make it a lot easier for finding quotes for teachers and finding townie names.--Simguy20652 21:17, 15 December 2008 (UTC) :Wish I could do that, would love to batter Earnest, Derby, Johnny and Ted in free roam. Actually come to mention I did batter Earnest in free roam after the mission where you take pictures for Mandy. Dan the Man 1983 21:50, 15 December 2008 (UTC) ::getting back to karl i've heard a couple of quotes from him that might indicate his seniority mostly if jimmy greets him while wearing the happy volts uniform karl replies "i have to go, i have a meeting with dr crabblesnitch" this could indicate that he represents the prefects in staff meetings Alanmk5 21:59, 15 December 2008 (UTC) :::Just out of interest what are some of the other quotes the prefects greet Jimmy with when he wearing the orderlies outfit? I have heard that is the only way they will be polite to him, when he is wearing that outfit. Dan the Man 1983 22:15, 15 December 2008 (UTC) ::::I'm pretty close to that mission, I'll get some quotes in the next day or so. Unless someone has the urge to beat me to it, which would be fine. McJeff 00:35, 16 December 2008 (UTC) :::::I was able to change every Prefect but Karl into the type of student they were before they became Prefects so I have a handful of quotes from them. But all of their pages have more than 20 quotes.--Simguy20652 03:41, 16 December 2008 (UTC) State Karl as the leader of the prefects or not. I'm going to ask for consensus on this since me and McJeff will just revert each others edits and get into another dispute again. McJeff thinks that the PC data file should not be used to override what has been deduced from in-game content. He also stated that Seth should be on top of the members table in the prefects article since he demonstrates authority where as Karl does not. Now my reasoning for reverting them edits are as simple. I think the PC date file should be used as evidence, since it states who the leader is, and in game content doesn't. Also I think the data file holds up more evidence since it was created by Rockstar themselves. Also my own personal opinion on why Karl is the leader, is that he talks about authority more then the other prefects do. The only way we are going to sort this out is by consensus, since me and McJeff will never agree on the subject. So this needs more then just mine and his opinion. So what do you guys think? Dan the Man 1983 17:09, 16 December 2008 (UTC) :I don't even agree that Karl's quotes demonstrate authority. They demonstrate an obsession with doing his job. Seems to me more like Karl's just obsessed with social climbing. Such as his quotes "I'm clearly going places" and "I can make your life a living hell". :I will also note that the PC data is not infallible. This is established fact, not opinion. :In the mean time I am going to place the prefects in alphabetical order by first name since there is no consensus on whom the leader is. McJeff 19:11, 16 December 2008 (UTC) ::First, I think Seth is used as the Punishment Prefect only because he is the Bully Prefect and that Karl was just a student before becoming a Prefect. Second, I checked the only other version of the game I have, the PS2 version, and that version also says that Karl is the leader. Lastly, To answer Dan the Man 1983's question I think we should go with what the games data says: Karl is the leader.--Simguy20652 21:52, 16 December 2008 (UTC) :::How do you check the PS2 data? In fact, where are you getting this stuff about which cliques the prefects used to be in? McJeff 22:49, 16 December 2008 (UTC) ::::I'm sorry, I just use the Prefects quotes to determine what clique they may have belong to, like how Seth mostly talks about beating people that would lead one to believe he was a bully. Now, most files in Bully end with a "dat" extention you can use this. It says its for GTA: Vice City but it still works. I made another post here that explains how to edit/check info on characters.--Simguy20652 23:14, 16 December 2008 (UTC) :::::So the PS2 data files state the same. We should ask Jessica on what she thinks and too give her opinion too. Dan the Man 1983 09:15, 17 December 2008 (UTC) I don't think you guys understand. We are not going to list Karl as the leader of the prefects because he clearly isn't. The data files have been proven to be unreliable - this is not opinion, it is a fact - and there is absolutely no in-game evidence that Karl is the leader of the prefects. "Consensus" does not mean we can state things that just are not true. McJeff 14:32, 17 December 2008 (UTC) :As a side note, Dan, I am getting very sick of you opposing me for apparently no other reason than to argue. I am really having to grit my teeth to let you get away with the frat paddle being called a cricket bat in the Weapons article - that is another prime example of consensus being incorrect. McJeff 14:34, 17 December 2008 (UTC) ::I hate to burst your little bubble but that decision isn't up to you okay. It isn't up to me neither. It's what the people of this Wiki decide. If you don't like consensus then don't edit here. Just because there is no in game evidence of Karl being the leader, doesn't mean it isn't true. There is however evidence stating he is leader from the games data files created by Rockstar. ::You may get sick of me opposing you, that is fair enough, I only oppose you cause I disagree with you, which you probably don't like, but that's tough. I don't oppose you to argue with you. ::How do you know what ROCKSTAR stated on their game data files is not fact? Answer is that you don't. Dan the Man 1983 15:20, 17 December 2008 (UTC) :::How do I know? Because the townie files all say dropout. We've been through that. As far as ownership goes, who's the one tho thinks he has a Veto because he's a beaurocrat? You. McJeff 16:12, 17 December 2008 (UTC) ::::So because of 1 error, you think the whole data files are wrong? I vetoed your edit because sharing a lisp or hair color with someone doesn't make you related to them. Dan the Man 1983 16:33, 17 December 2008 (UTC) :::I have asked one of the community team to come and give their opinions on this. Quite frankly McJeff your comment "I don't think you guys understand. We are not going to list Karl as the leader of the prefects because he clearly isn't" was borderline ownership in my opinion and that ain't how things work here on this Wiki. Dan the Man 1983 15:42, 17 December 2008 (UTC) Hullo, I have been called here, but I can only give advice - I am not here to make any decisions or rebuke anyone. Generally, with "controversial" info, it's a good idea try and give both sides of the story. Wikis can always carry extra information, if it helps makes the situation clear to the reader. You don't really need to decide what is correct. Possibly the developers didn't bother to update filenames, or never actually decided one way or way or the other (this is especially true for WoWWiki). Note, a "controversial" edit for one person may not be for the next - however, if it is flagged up, even if you don't agree with it being controversial, talk it over. As for working out disputes: yes, use the talk page. Try and get a consensus. While admins do generally have final say, just due to their rights, you should always avoid having to do so, if there is the possibility for a consensus. Decisions don't have to be made in a matter of hours, either - it's a wiki, you've got days and weeks to talk about it :) The wikis not going to self-destruct if you don't fix the issue immediately :P Kirkburn (talk) 17:07, 17 December 2008 (UTC) :I went away and did some thinking. Should we not state a clear leader on the Prefects page, but state that both Karl and Seth could be the leader due to the PC data file stating Karl and in game content implies that Seth is. Dan the Man 1983 18:20, 17 December 2008 (UTC) ::Short term... well, it should state that Karl is probably the leader, since you were right earlier that a bigger role doesn't mean anything, and although Seth acts like he has authority, it wouldn't be out of character for him to just abuse presumed authority. ::So we can say Karl is probably the head prefect. ::Here's something weird I noticed, though... Damon seems like he has a huge in-game role because he's always attacking you, but he's absent from all the missions in Chapter 4 except the boss fight, so he actually has a pretty small one. Or Peanut is according to the files the 2nd in Command of the Greasers, and he has the smallest role of the Greasers in Chapter 3. McJeff 20:50, 17 December 2008 (UTC) :::Damon never attacks me and I am on Chapter 2 on a mess about save. But that might be due to the fact that I missed doing the Big Prank mission. I noticed that avoiding it sets off two glitches where the Bullies don't attack or even attempt to bully you for the remainder of Chapter 1, and the Jocks don't attack you on sight near the gym like they normally would. :::I noticed that all 2nd in commands don't really have a big role in the game. Dan the Man 1983 23:25, 17 December 2008 (UTC) :::: I don't know if you still need my opinion but, Karl should be the head prefect. Seth just mainly handles punishment, hence him being the "Punishment Prefect".Oh, I read this entire page. You two are going to disagree on many things. It's how the world works but you two are the Heads of this Wikia and continous fighting over a topic isn't necessary. Didn't you guys establish the whole "wikibreak" so you both don't get too heated over each other's opinions. Try to not get so fired up with the disputes guys. We have us three to work out this wikia and teamwork and empathy is needed to get this wikia successful. Sorry, I didn't mean to lecture, I just wanted to get that out. You two have excellent editting skills, no need to go into long disputes, you got me, use me for opinions before you go into a massive frenzy. :] Much Love For You Two. superiors. TheKidInside 03:58, 18 December 2008 (UTC) :::::: Comments from you make a lot of sense, you have a wise head for a 15 year old. The dispute is done with since we found a solution. However before as you can see it just escalated into me and him arguing, and just pure madness. Dan the Man 1983 04:17, 18 December 2008 (UTC) 30 quotes suggesttion. Karl has many hilarious quotes in my opinion. So do you reckon we should put his limit to 30, since there is a lot more funnier ones that can be added. Dan the Man 1983 08:35, 18 February 2009 (UTC) :Nah, I think 20's enough for everyone but Russell. Some characters are funnier than others, but letting characters get extra quotes based on how funny they are is just going to be a slippery slope I don't think we need. McJeff 03:13, 19 February 2009 (UTC) ::Jimmy has 30 too. I think we should make exceptions if they character is funny. I think the real purpose of the quotes is to show personality and also show how funny they can be. I wanted 30 here to add a few more funny and serious quotes about him. Dan the Man 1983 11:08, 19 February 2009 (UTC) :::There's enough lame quotes in the article right now that you could easily find some to replace. Besides, I'm pretty sure that we're badly abusing the fair use policy as it is currently, and I suspect if someone went to Wikia central, they'd tell us to cut the quote sections entirely. McJeff 18:22, 19 February 2009 (UTC) ::::Well if you're that worried about fair use policy, go to Wikia Central and ask them. I sometimes think you hate these quotes sections being on the pages here. You always complain when someone add's more then 20. Dan the Man 1983 18:33, 19 February 2009 (UTC) :::::I think we can agree that the quotes can go if they violate fair use policy. Dan the Man 1983 18:59, 19 February 2009 (UTC) ::::::I went on Wikia chat earlier and asked about this. * Is adding quotes from a video game on Wikia, against the fair use policy? * crucially: only staff should be able to add stuff to the blacklist. The list of currently blocked expressions is available on Special:SpamRegex * I think that would depend on the nature of the quote. * Fair use is an affirmative defense, so if your use is reasonable, it might defend against your breach of copyright. * the entry should be fairly recent * Ideally you would be discussing the topic rather than just having a long list of quotes. * Danthe, what GreenReaper said, plus you might want to limit how much you quote as well. Dan the Man 1983 02:26, 21 February 2009 (UTC) :If you will, ask around and see if you can find someone who'll set up a references template for us. Whenever I tried it wouldn't work. We'll then use quotes as references, as many as we need per character. We won't make any changes until the ref template's working. McJeff 03:49, 21 February 2009 (UTC) ::I am gonna put a link to Wikia chat on the main page, so if any help is needed, one of us could go in there and ask. Dan the Man 1983 04:39, 21 February 2009 (UTC) :::Unfortunately I can't use IRC. McJeff 21:53, 21 February 2009 (UTC) ::::I asked earlier and got no answer. Will ask tomorrow. Dan the Man 1983 05:12, 22 February 2009 (UTC) Just a note. He is nasty. I saw one of the rare times another prefect said Hi to him and he said:"How dare you say hi to me in this manner!" Dan the Man 1983 15:16, 13 July 2009 (UTC)